Carl Goldberg [00:00:00]: I'll make anything anybody wants because I'm not wearing their shirt. Right. They have theirs they have what they wanna wear and I'll make that for them. Reg Ferguson [00:00:08]: Welcome to the Fashion Geek podcast. The show that helps you learn more about men's fashion and get some tips to help you dress your best. This is Reg Ferguson, fashion geek number 1 and I'm a men's fashion consultant here in New York City, born and raised. My mission is to help you learn more about men's fashion so you can become fashion confident. Do you wear shirts? Do you like shirts? Long sleeve, short sleeve, polo, button down collar, spread collar, tab collar, regular barrel cuffs, French cuffs? What if you could go somewhere and get your shirt custom made? Pick anything you want, fabric, buttons, even a monogram. My guest, Carl Goldberg of Seagull Custom Shirt Makers, is here on the show because he not only does shirts for you and me, he also does shirts for Broadway and Hollywood. So if you got a custom shirt made, would it make you fashion confused? Too many options, intimidating, or would it make you fashion confident? You can get anything you want in me. Me. Reg Ferguson [00:01:32]: Anything. Hey. If you ever found yourself staring at the closet, not knowing what to wear, or if the idea of shopping for clothes makes you feel physically ill, Wait till the end of the show and I have something for you. But for now, let's get to the show. Yo. Today, we're gonna talk with Carl Goldberg who is the founder of Seagull Custom Shirt Makers. And we're gonna talk about something the everyday man should have an interest in. What is it like to get a custom shirt made? Call in the building. Reg Ferguson [00:02:05]: Alright. How are you? Carl Goldberg [00:02:06]: Pleasure to meet in person. Reg Ferguson [00:02:07]: Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:02:08]: Yeah. After numerous, DMs. It's been a long time. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:02:11]: It's been a very long time, but now we're finally here. I always get my man. Carl Goldberg [00:02:14]: Okay. Reg Ferguson [00:02:15]: So, so when I came in here earlier, you did not remember how we met. Carl Goldberg [00:02:21]: So but I have a very good memory but sometimes it's, you know, I'm getting older so I have everything to say in there. Reg Ferguson [00:02:27]: That's okay. But before we go into that, please tell us. So what do you do? Carl Goldberg [00:02:50]: I'm a custom shirt maker. I'm not a bespoke shirt maker. I'm a custom shirt maker. This is the term I've used since I started the business in 1983. Okay. And that was the term we always use. Bespoke, you know, whatever. I know. Carl Goldberg [00:03:04]: Wawa. So, for years I worked with, a big factory that some people would call made to measure. Mhmm. But I still call it a custom shirt because measurements went into they were using computers. So everything went into the computer, made a paper made a pattern in the computer Mhmm. And they cut it. They could do slope shoulders and lots of alterations. Sadly that factory closed so we're doing everything in back here now. Carl Goldberg [00:03:28]: Holy I've got a workroom with 9 people and we make paper patterns for almost every customer. Wow. So that's why if someone comes in we have a larger minimum, we need to get 5 a minimum of 5 shirts. We make one to start, make sure they're happy and then after that we cut the rest Reg Ferguson [00:03:46]: of the order. So let's literally talk about the process. Right. The very first question I have is why should someone get a custom made shirt? Carl Goldberg [00:03:57]: Well, there's we used to call it they were I'm trying to remember the whole term. It was cripples, cranks or crazies. But you know, the main first were the people who really was is guys who are hard to fit. Right. Someone might have a really long arm length, doesn't fit. Their neck size is a 15a half, but their body is for a 16a half. So, out of statistical norms. The second are guys who want specific details that you can't get. Carl Goldberg [00:04:27]: I've got guys who have French cuff shirts with pockets. You can't find a French cuff shirt with a pocket. Reg Ferguson [00:04:32]: Well, you Carl Goldberg [00:04:33]: know what? I don't care. I'll make anything anybody wants because I'm not wearing their shirt. Right. They have theirs they have what they wanna wear and I'll make that for them. And the last are people who just like the process of being able to come in, pick their own fabric, pick their details. Amazing. They like the personal attention, especially in here. They like the fact that everything's being made here, so you can look in back to see where their patterns are made and cut and how things are sewn. Carl Goldberg [00:05:01]: They can pick buttons and you know, all the details that go with it. And in reality, if you're buying a better garment, if you're spending 200 well, 2 you know, like 250 and up for a shirt, There's a lot of poorly made garments out there, that they charge a lot of money for. Reg Ferguson [00:05:21]: Mhmm. Carl Goldberg [00:05:21]: And, I could show you there's one hanging over there particularly that gets a lot of great reputation and it's not made very well. Let me get over $200 for it. Mhmm. So, might as well get something that's made better and that holds up better. Reg Ferguson [00:05:37]: So, the detail obviously is an amazing thing. Yeah. Right? Amazing thing. What is the very first step when someone comes here to Seaga? Carl Goldberg [00:05:50]: Off I get a lot of young guys who show up in just a t shirt or some casual garment. So what we'll do is we'll put a sample garment on them. I have probably several different fits of garments and we'll find what fits their shoulder and chest first because this is the most important here. Mhmm. And then we talk through, I'll take measurements and I'll talk to them with what do they want. How trim do you want the shirt? How fitted? Easy? What are the details? And then I'll we'll take all the measurements. We'll talk through what other details they want, what front style. This is a French front. Carl Goldberg [00:06:29]: This is probably what we call placket front. You know, collar style. How heavy lining that goes in the collar versus soft. You know, the because we we can make almost anything that looks like a I see. Yeah. We can make anything that looks like a shirt and I can show you later some of the things I'm talking about. Great. And once they once they we work out the fit and we can work out a fit for both a shirt that's gonna be worn for work with a tie tucked in or casual or casually or super casual. Carl Goldberg [00:07:00]: How would you wear a linen shirt? You know, would that be worn untucked? So we take all those measurements into account. You just missed the gentleman here. We made him a Hawaiian shirt. Reg Ferguson [00:07:09]: Oh, man. Carl Goldberg [00:07:10]: But his the Hawaiian shirt he wanted was not what I would call a typical Hawaiian shirt. Reg Ferguson [00:07:16]: Why is that? Carl Goldberg [00:07:17]: Well, it had a it had well, in Hawaii sometimes they have a stand up collar. To me, that kind of shirt had what we call pajama collar or a camp shirt was laid down. He wanted the tail longer than normal. But you know what? Again, it's his shirt. He Reg Ferguson [00:07:33]: has to wear it. Carl Goldberg [00:07:34]: Yeah. When a customer comes in, they'll suggest things and oh, can I get this and if I really think it's wrong, I'll tell them it's wrong? Otherwise, you know, we just work through those details. Reg Ferguson [00:07:46]: What is a trend you're seeing right now? You said, hey, a young customer comes in, you know, they're probably influenced by, you know, social media or, you know, a blog, a magazine. Fortunately, Carl Goldberg [00:08:00]: there is a move away from super tight shirts, which is great. The hardest thing for me when fitting somebody today is a so many of the young guys have shoulders that are like this. I mean, you could ski off the shoulders, they slope so hard and then they move forward. I mean, it's I've I've done fittings where a guy will be standing like this in the beginning and by the end he's like this. So which posture am I cutting a shirt for? So that's one of the things. Secondly, like I said, cutting a little bit easier these days. So, and the hardest part for me is guys who want these really fitted shirts. Their pants are cut so low. Carl Goldberg [00:08:44]: That they're below the hip level. Right. And you know, it it's it looks uncomfortable. But you know, that's what guys want sometimes. Reg Ferguson [00:08:54]: Right. Carl Goldberg [00:08:54]: So, it's gone away from super tight to trim. Okay. And in some cases, I'm cutting much fuller shirts for guys. Really? Yeah. Going back, I mean there's guys who are wearing higher waisted pants and they want that look where the shirt can tuck in and blouse a little bit. Oh, cool. Because you don't want a super tight shirt with high waisted pants. It just looks kind of weird. Reg Ferguson [00:09:21]: So, are you doing an actual pattern for each one of these customers? A paper pattern? Carl Goldberg [00:09:28]: Yes, we do. So, this excuse me a second. Yep. So this was the pattern for the gentleman who was just here. So, we make a paper pattern. This is sleeve pattern and it goes for both right and left. It just gets flipped over. This is a back and that's also done in half because we cut, and he wants darts. Carl Goldberg [00:09:54]: So this is for darts. Here's front. This goes like this here. Wow. I don't think he has a pocket. So if it was, he'd get marked for pocket. Here's his cuff pattern. Here's the yoked pattern, collar band, and what we call the collar leaf. Carl Goldberg [00:10:19]: Oh, that's cool. And this this number is his numbering system which tells us what what the collar height the the first letter is a height. Mhmm. This is a spread. This, that's the length of the point and that's the back height. Reg Ferguson [00:10:34]: Wow. Carl Goldberg [00:10:35]: So it's an old system that I started with with one of the factories in New Jersey. It's simple. It works. We all understand it. Very good. So everything here, except, of course, the the back and, is cut twice. So everything's folded over and laid out and so you get you get both pieces cut at the same time. Mhmm. Carl Goldberg [00:10:58]: You don't have to cut sleeves separately. Reg Ferguson [00:11:00]: Okay. I did not know that. Carl Goldberg [00:11:01]: Yeah. At least the way we cut. Reg Ferguson [00:11:03]: Okay. Carl Goldberg [00:11:03]: A big factory would cuts what they call open, when the fabric's laid out open, they will cut, the sleeve separately. Reg Ferguson [00:11:09]: Okay. So if I think of a suit. Right? Yeah. I know that I have, for example, in my pants, I have around an inch to play with. There's some Right. There's no What am I walking into here, Carl? Carl Goldberg [00:11:22]: The only thing that we do that's kind of really different from a ready made shirt is we bury a half inch of fabric inside the cuff. So if you find that the sleeves are a little too short, we have some some fabric in there and we can lunch them. But otherwise, if you if you have darts and you gain weight, you can let the darts out. But it's, a shirt has no outlets. Reg Ferguson [00:11:47]: Okay. Carl Goldberg [00:11:47]: Yeah. I mean, sometimes for theater or certain things, we will cut a garment with outlets because mostly for cruise ships because they never know who's gonna be wearing the garment. So we leave fabric inside. So if they need to make a bigger, fabric's inside or they can make them smaller sometimes. Reg Ferguson [00:12:06]: I want to remember to to talk about that eventually. I want to stay with the individual. Sure. You're doing a minimum order of 5. Yeah. Correct? Correct. And essentially that's because of all the work. Carl Goldberg [00:12:20]: Yeah. The work in the beginning. Yeah. To make a pattern and make one shirt is not profitable. I mean, sometimes I'll do it, you know, but today we have so much work that unless I really feel like I should do it, I won't. Understood. Yeah. The fellow called me yesterday, can you make me a tuxedo shirt in 2 weeks? I said there's a 5 shirt minimum. Carl Goldberg [00:12:42]: I can make it if you buy 5 shirts. He wasn't interested. Reg Ferguson [00:12:47]: What is the general turnaround from the individual coming in, being put on that fitting sample garment? They select what they select, the patterns or the patterns? Carl Goldberg [00:13:01]: We try to quote 2 weeks for the first sample. Really? You know, we have a lot of work. So I mean, if I re if a guy came in from out of town, let's say someone came in from California and was in New York for a few days and doesn't come back that often, they can come in, we'll take the measurements, and we can turn around a sample in a day if if we, you know, if we need to. This way we get the fitting done and then we go from there. But, you know, we do have a backlog of work right now. So, you know, generally, we put about 2 weeks. Then once the shirt's done, customer comes in, tries it on, we take a look at it, see if there's any adjustments to be made. If we have to adjust it, we'll adjust, you know, the shirt. Carl Goldberg [00:13:44]: We'll fix the pattern. If it's a complete disaster, we'll cut a new shirt. And it happens, you know, and then he wears it a couple of times, has it laundered the way he normally wanders his shirts. There's nothing worse than a guy who thinks he wants to speed up the shrinkage process by washing it at home and putting it in the dryer because then nothing fits. We even have the problem these days where shirts stretch because of how laundries, press the shirts. Reg Ferguson [00:14:12]: Okay. How is that happening? Carl Goldberg [00:14:14]: Alright. So, today's pressing equipment is what we call this robotic equipment. They wash the shirt, goes to what they call an extractor to get most of the water out. Yes. They then put it on these forms that are and they button it a little bit and it blows hot air through the while it's still wet and it the form expands a little bit as it's doing it and if the it happens more with twill fabrics and other things and it stretches literally. They clamp the sleeves in a way and they pull the sleeves and they're wet. They put the thing in, it blows out and stretching the sleeve out the whole time. So, what was normally figured a half inch of shrinkage allowance because shirts normally would shrink because of how they do this now. Carl Goldberg [00:15:00]: I've seen sleeves stretch a full inch. Reg Ferguson [00:15:02]: What? Yeah. Wow. That's bizarre. Carl Goldberg [00:15:06]: Yeah. A guy came in a couple weeks ago for the first fitting. Shirt was beautiful. I didn't do it. I didn't want to do a thing but I sent him home. He comes back with the shirt and we're looking at it. The shirt was not even close and the shirt had stretched and it was a twill fabric that we've used for years. So Wow. Carl Goldberg [00:15:28]: Yeah. So we then washed it, put it in the dryer and then cut it down to the correct size. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, Reg Ferguson [00:15:39]: so, barring these abnormalities Right. What is a general turnaround time? Point to point. Carl Goldberg [00:15:47]: Figure Reg Ferguson [00:15:49]: 6 weeks. Okay. I was saying to myself 5 to 6 weeks. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:15:52]: I was pretty good. You know, that's making the shirt, doing the fitting, and then, you know, having them wearing it. And then once once we're happy with the fit, we'll usually turn around and order around in a week Okay. For a customer, a week Reg Ferguson [00:16:08]: to 10 days depending on how busy we are. And everything is cut and sewn by hand here in this building. Carl Goldberg [00:16:16]: Yeah. Well, okay. I've got a couple of ladies who will take things home and we're gonna That's okay. But otherwise, it's all made, by my people. Wow. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:16:27]: So you're vertically held as the kids say. Carl Goldberg [00:16:30]: Yeah. And occasionally, I've had design students, show up. Reg Ferguson [00:16:35]: Really? Carl Goldberg [00:16:35]: And the people at FIT or Parsons, and they're not used to seeing, a garment made from design to start to finish in one place. Wow. Yeah. So Reg Ferguson [00:16:49]: You're keeping it you're keeping it old school. Carl Goldberg [00:16:50]: Yeah. There's a there's like Handful? There's like 5 of us and maybe you know, I take that back. There's less than 10 people in the city making shirts by hand like this. Maybe, like, give or take. There's only there's 2 of us with larger shops. Reg Ferguson [00:17:10]: Mhmm. Carl Goldberg [00:17:11]: Myself and, Geneva shirt. And Geneva makes a that's right. He makes a lovely garment. He makes a good basic garment. He won't do the weird stuff that my shop will do. Reg Ferguson [00:17:22]: Okay. Well, maybe that's a good segue. So let's talk about weird stuff. You have your regular customer, someone like me. Hey, come in. Hey, I want this. Yeah. But, rumor has it that you were doing a lot for, Broadway and Hollywood. Reg Ferguson [00:17:39]: Right. Carl Goldberg [00:17:39]: We do a lot of theatrical work for Broadway. Moulin Rouge is a good example. There's a few shirts that look like normal shirts and then there's a few shirts that just are crazy looking. Or they're made with sheer fabrics or ruffles out of, almost a see through fabric. We do period things like we did for, Sweeney Todd. And I've got a whole assortment of shirts and you can take pictures of later that has the bib front and the big puffy sleeves. Not really a pirate shirt per se as Seinfeld would say but big big and full cut. We'll work in a lot of different fabrics that normally people won't work in. Reg Ferguson [00:18:27]: How did you get into the Broadway game? Carl Goldberg [00:18:29]: How did that happen? It goes way back to like 1999. I got a phone call from a costume person. Can you make, some shirts for the producer of the show Spin City? Oh, yeah. So, I gave her all the details, how much blah blah blah. I get a call the next day, can you come measure the the producer? Who am I measuring? Michael j Fox. So I measured I made shirts for Michael j Fox and from then, there was one particular costume assistant who went to work for or worked with William Ivy Long who's was is a famous Broadway costume designer, has won many Tony's. And the first show I worked on was, The Music Man. Oh, wow. Carl Goldberg [00:19:11]: Starring Craig Bierko. And, you know, 25 years later, I made Hugh Jackman's show for The Music Man. Oh, wow. Right. So, that was the first one. And then the same costume designer, kept me in 2, like, 2,000, 2001 is when, business casual started and guys didn't wanna wear ties or nice shirts anymore. And fortunately, making Nazi stormtrooper shirts for the producers kept me through got me through the year. You know, I made shirts for Nathan Lane, Matthew Broderick. Carl Goldberg [00:19:47]: Yeah. I have I have one over here from from that point. So that that that kept me going. And it's not the only Nazi shirt Hitler shirt I've ever made. Reg Ferguson [00:19:57]: Okay. Carl Goldberg [00:19:57]: I made one for I made one for, for, book of Mormon. Okay. But if someone off the street wanted one, I don't think so. Okay. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:20:06]: I was like, yeah. This is some weird perverse mitzvah. Carl Goldberg [00:20:09]: Yeah. I got that. I do have my I do have my, limits. And so from there, there was another guy doing a lot of that work, but the people liked working with me. I grew up in a family army navy surplus store in Philadelphia. Yes. My father had exceedingly good taste in clothes. Reg Ferguson [00:20:28]: I've Carl Goldberg [00:20:28]: heard. And I'm not that I I did not study design, or but just being around fashion and clothing and being interested in learning, I have a knowledge of what things should look like. Reg Ferguson [00:20:42]: Let's let's do a little pivot. So, yeah. I know you're 3rd generation in this game. Carl Goldberg [00:20:47]: Well, this this is my business. No. I know it's your business but but meaning, Reg Ferguson [00:20:51]: like you just said, hey, my dad Right. Your uncle, Philly. Yeah. Right. So yeah. I do my research, bro. Carl Goldberg [00:20:59]: So my first design job was I was in college and it's 1979. I was into, like, punk and new wave music Right. And I got a bunch of, I saw some of the bright colors people were doing. So I took some, surplus and dyed it up in the washing machine where I was living in college and start wearing it and then sent sent the samples some of the samples back to my father and they started dyeing professionally up in Philadelphia and became a huge part of the business. Reg Ferguson [00:21:32]: Get out. Oh, yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:21:35]: They would take those Yeah. So they would over dye all sorts of stuff. So I take a little responsibility for that one. Reg Ferguson [00:21:45]: Alright. So we talk about the Broadway, we talk about, you know, but also Spin City. But now let's really talk about, you know, the Hollywood stuff, the TV, the movies. How did that also happen? Carl Goldberg [00:21:57]: The same some of the same costume people went from Broadway to TV. Sometimes someone, costume would would ask somebody else, I need to get some shirts made, who can do it? And my name would come up now. So my competition in Los Angeles is a fellow by the name of Anto, who makes for tons of people. But I'm doing this long enough that, I'm either myself for a lot of things. There's again, there's the other fellow at Geneva who does some TV and movie work. Reg Ferguson [00:22:26]: Right. Carl Goldberg [00:22:28]: And we're known for delivering on time or faster than on time. Mhmm. We've turned shirts around in 2 hours. 2 hours to get something made. Yeah. The most recent one, this one's kind of fun, for a new TV show called, The Better Sister. They're filming it now starring Corey Stahl and we made a bunch of shirts for him and we get a phone call 3 o'clock in the afternoon and the comment is the intimacy expert thinks the shirts are too short. How fast can you turn around a shirt that's maybe 5 inches longer to, you know, to cover? So we said, alright, we have the pattern, just had to make it longer. Carl Goldberg [00:23:11]: We did it. It worked the next day. Everybody was happy. 2 hours. Is that is that Reg Ferguson [00:23:17]: is that a record in the shop, Carl Goldberg [00:23:19]: Fernando? That's right. I'm gonna ask my assistant. What do you think? What could we do? Yeah. We've done a little less than 2. I mean, at that point, it's all hands on deck. As long as the pattern's ready, because the pattern takes maybe 15 minutes to an, half an hour to make. Cutting can be another 15 minutes give or take and then everyone starts sewing. This lady I mean, normally the ladies work in pairs and work together. Carl Goldberg [00:23:46]: In this case, this one's doing this job. This one's making the cuffs. That one's making the sleeves and the body. This one's making the collars and the fronts or whatever it might be and then button buttonhole quick press is out the door. It's but but but can you but can you say rush charge? Reg Ferguson [00:24:03]: I know you're gonna you're not gonna give your number, but it must be a heck of a number. When when that happens Yeah. Are you doing a messenger? Like like literally, you know, you get the order, Carl Goldberg [00:24:14]: however They pick up. Reg Ferguson [00:24:16]: They they they come here. Carl Goldberg [00:24:17]: The production companies drop off. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:24:18]: Okay. They'll drop off and they'll pick up? Carl Goldberg [00:24:20]: Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:24:21]: Okay. You mentioned something earlier that what sets you apart, at least in the entertainment realm, is your ability or your willingness to do the wildest of things. Yeah. How much is it that and again, I don't know the role, so you're gonna teach me and teach the audience. How is it how much of it is an individual, I don't know, a costumer going, this is what we're looking at versus a collaboration between you and that individual? Carl Goldberg [00:24:52]: It goes both ways. Mostly, it's the the customer has stuff. They'll bring research and then sometimes it becomes weird random things. Recently different stereophonic. Yeah. And the costume designer probably is in his thirties. I was a teenager when rumors came out and I knew and I was working at family stores, so I knew what clothes were supposed to look like. So when we were discussing what, somebody would have worn, I said would it look like this, it would have been this style. Carl Goldberg [00:25:24]: So he listened to me and he was actually really his name was Envar. Don't ask me, I can't remember how to pronounce his last name. Okay. And everything looked great for that show. They use a lot of vintage. They just showed up the other day with a vintage shirt that's kinda dead, and we're gonna have to recreate it somehow. Reg Ferguson [00:25:43]: And what do you mean when it's dead? Carl Goldberg [00:25:45]: Oh, it's it's from the 19 seventies. How you know, it gets washed, you know, every day or every other day or whatever they wash. It depends on how what it's worn for. They only last so long. Mhmm. You know, you should see what a shirt looks like after a year being on Broadway being worn every other day and washed every other day. Reg Ferguson [00:26:05]: Really? Yeah. Threadbare? Carl Goldberg [00:26:07]: They're a little rough. Sometimes there's patches in weird places because they've ripped. But, you know, it's Broadway. It's not TV. No one's, you know, no one in even in the 5th row can see half the stuff that happens. Good point. Reg Ferguson [00:26:22]: Yeah. Good point. I am a pretty big research guy and I read in one of your Instagrams that when you're working with a theatrical production that is in previews Yeah. From an ordering standpoint, you hedge your bets Carl Goldberg [00:26:40]: Yeah. So to speak. Well, they don't wanna spend a lot of money, in previews. Well, especially if it's an out of town, preview where they're trying something out. But, like, I'll give you let's see. A good one. Queen of Versailles, which stars, Kristen Chenoweth and f. Marie Abraham. Carl Goldberg [00:27:00]: So they bought and it takes place between present day. I don't know if anybody knows the story. No. I don't. It's about this I don't. It's about this, very wealthy guy in Florida. He and his wife built a home that was a replica of Versailles. It never was finished. Carl Goldberg [00:27:15]: But the point is they it's outlandish and it was a documentary. It's it's hilarious. Oh. So they turned it into a musical and it goes from old time Versailles when it was originally built to modern day. So we made a few shirts but what if once it is ready and comes to Broadway, I'll probably make things that are much more fun for a lot of the other roles. Right now, they'll buy just ready made stuff, just to get through. Mhmm. You know, but when it comes to Broadway, they want a lot more color. Carl Goldberg [00:27:50]: Mhmm. A lot more, you know, noticeable things. Reg Ferguson [00:27:53]: We talked about something related to that earlier. Can you explain the intricacies of using particular fabrics, let's say, for a TV production versus a theatrical production? Carl Goldberg [00:28:08]: Well, let's see. For TV, you know, they want fabrics. White's not a great color, so they often tech down a white shirt, so a slightly off white. Reg Ferguson [00:28:19]: Now, what is tech down? Carl Goldberg [00:28:20]: Tech down means it's it's dipped, sometimes a tea solution, very pale light tea. Wow. It takes the shade down because if you're under bright lights, it's just sometimes too bright. So if I have fabrics that are slightly a dull white or, we often use a lot of light blue, a lot of light gray to approximate white or a light shade. And then when you do stripes, like the stripe you're wearing Yes. Would never work on a TV show. Reg Ferguson [00:28:52]: And why is that? Carl Goldberg [00:28:53]: It, today is not so much with certain cameras, but back in the day on film, it would strobe. So you'd see it moving. It'd buzz. It would buzz. Yeah. So often we do, like, this is a great example. This is multi stripes. So it's not gonna move. Carl Goldberg [00:29:10]: And then you see and in TV, they like patterns. So if you got up close and you look at somebody's shirt, you'll see that it might be a solid shirt, but it has a little texture in it. Then there's a tie, then the jacket is not flat usually. Usually, it might be a little herringbone or a slight, you know, window pane. Something that has, that's not you know, they don't want flat. It's basically what it comes down to. Whereas in theater, you want bold because people on in the balcony In the balcony. Yep. Carl Goldberg [00:29:40]: In the balcony need to see something. Reg Ferguson [00:29:41]: Right. Carl Goldberg [00:29:42]: So for example, we went for, in MJ, There's a scene with the Nicholas Brothers. Reg Ferguson [00:29:48]: Pulled out. Carl Goldberg [00:29:48]: Yeah. With the dancers and we started originally with a purple stripe that was was a nice stripe but then when we ran out of it, we had to print it and we printed it probably twice as large. So, you could see the stripe a little better from distance. Reg Ferguson [00:30:06]: That's pretty cool. It's it's it's tricks Yeah. So to speak. Carl Goldberg [00:30:10]: So, I have a lot of inventory as I mentioned that's bought specifically for television. And it's the type of stuff that might not a regular customer might not buy, but they love for TV. Reg Ferguson [00:30:21]: In doing my research, you love securing vintage fabrics. Carl Goldberg [00:30:29]: Yep. So I have way more than I'd like to have, but, to me you know, for example, in front of me Mhmm. Is a pink and gray stripe. That's pretty. Okay. This came from the inventory of a famous shirt maker who passed away. His name was Alex Cabaz. Heard the name? This fabric was woven in England by Thomas Mason when Thomas Mason was still making in England, probably in the eighties before they shut down. Carl Goldberg [00:30:58]: And the difference is the quality of the fabric. The the methods of weaving were slower and less complicated. Today, the machines are much faster and the older fabrics just feel better. Really? Yeah. Yeah. You know, they used, today they use a lot of resins in the finishing to give it sort of a slick feel. Non iron is evil as most people know but don't wanna think about the fact that they're saving money, you know, on laundry that they don't have to send the shirts out to be pressed but it's a terrible process. Mhmm. Carl Goldberg [00:31:37]: Now, why do you say it's terrible? Well, the shirt is cut. It's then glued together as it's being stitched. There's a tape in the seam that has like a fusing tape and they literally they don't have to sew it. They could just glue it together. So and then what happens is they then take the shirt, they dip it in a bath of chemicals, usually liquid, sometimes used to be, formaldehyde, now liquid ammonia, a bunch of different things. Woah. They then bake it. So if they didn't tape the seams over time, the seams pucker. Carl Goldberg [00:32:14]: So that's how they came up because it's That's like a fused Reg Ferguson [00:32:16]: It's a fused version for a shirt. Carl Goldberg [00:32:18]: Like Oh, worse. Yeah. Worse. Okay. Because it's called slippage. Like I've had some fabric years ago that were finished with liquid ammonia and we'd stitch them and then sometimes you'd see what we call slippage wrinkling the pockets sometimes up by the armhole because the fabric moves. Woah. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:32:39]: Wow. Because it's, you know, it's got all these resins and it's Reg Ferguson [00:32:41]: a little slippery. Sometimes, from my research, when you're getting this vintage stuff, sometimes you're you're you're like a wing and a prayer like it's sight unseen. Carl Goldberg [00:32:52]: Oh, you know, it's bought right. You know, again my family owned an army navy surplus store. I used to go with my father to military bases as a kid to bid on bid on big, you know, piles of used army shirts or, knife scabbards or, you know, whatever it was. And, as my father said, money is made in the buy. Meaning, if you buy it right, you can sit on it long enough and find a customer for it. Wow. So, there's one big lot of fabric sitting in around the corner from a shirt maker who closed his store in 1990. He moved everything to, somewhere on Park Avenue South and there's 15,000 yards of fabric. Carl Goldberg [00:33:39]: He's had suits. I took I got Crowley to go over there and Crowley put some of the suits and some of the overcoats and it was all beautifully made and the problem is sometimes this old stuff is not is stained or discolored. Yeah. And his daughter, he's still alive but he's got dementia. And he was a character to begin with. I tried to help him sell this stuff years years ago Oh. But he wouldn't sell. And now the daughter, like the father, thinks she's got gold. Carl Goldberg [00:34:08]: Right. And she said, I want this price. And I said, no. I'll only give you this and I'm doing you a favor. It was a 2nd floor walk up. Oh. You know, it I don't know how much it would cost me just to get some down from a 2nd floor walk up. Right. Carl Goldberg [00:34:23]: So. Holy moly. Yeah. It's still there, I think. If she had gotten rid of it a year and a half ago, she could have rented the floor. Yeah. Yeah. Foresight. Carl Goldberg [00:34:33]: You made a shirt deconstructed from 2 dresses, a window pane. Oh, God. That was recently. That was for a costume designer for, help me Fernando. What show is Leon working on? Dream Girls. Dream Girls. It was for a production of Dream Girls at out of the Muni in, Muny's in, I don't know, Saint Louis and it was a he had a night there's one scene where you see the, the 2 blonde girls and like a patboons or a person, you know, singing the song that was made first by a black performer. Reg Ferguson [00:35:09]: Oh, of course. Carl Goldberg [00:35:10]: And he loved this pat he found dresses for the 2 women and we couldn't he want the man to look with the exact same. Couldn't find, obviously couldn't find the fabric so he gave me 2 dresses. We literally cut it up to create a shirt and because of how the dress was constructed, there were pieces. For example, the front was fine here. There's another piece down here. The back was split down the middle and you couldn't see any of this. Yeah. It was it was a lot of work but it got made and it looked good. Reg Ferguson [00:35:42]: It looked beautiful. Carl Goldberg [00:35:43]: I mean, Reg Ferguson [00:35:43]: it was a window pane. Yeah. I'm partial to window pane. Yeah. So what's your opinion on because as you said there was a customer we saw a little earlier, you seem to really be into when we're talking about seasonality, when talking about summer stuff, you seem to have an affinity towards florals and Hawaiian prints. Carl Goldberg [00:36:03]: Personally, I don't do that. I don't wear that many prints myself. I mean, people have. Mhmm. I'm not like I said, I'm not big on I mean, I have some. Mhmm. I like larger patterns, stuff that reads casual for that kind of thing. It's very specific, so it shouldn't look like you're wearing a dress shirt, casually. Carl Goldberg [00:36:27]: Like originally, this morning I was gonna put on a different shirt and then I realized, oh wait, I'm gonna be on camera. I need something that's a little, you know It's a beautiful shirt. I mean, Reg Ferguson [00:36:36]: I blew on smoke. It's nice Carl Goldberg [00:36:37]: to wear. This fabric is probably from the nineties. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's really pretty. Thank you. This was bought from somebody who closed up his business a while ago. Reg Ferguson [00:36:47]: Really? Yeah. Well, let's talk about this. You see this shirt that I have on? Yes. You don't think this is a familiar shirt, but it should be. Carl Goldberg [00:36:57]: You know, we were having this discussion that you found this at a thrift store. I did. And I'd have to after this, I'm gonna have you pull out the tail so I can look at the tags and I'll try and figure out where it was made and who made it. Reg Ferguson [00:37:10]: I did that already. We did it in the DM years ago. Carl Goldberg [00:37:13]: Yeah. But I don't remember. And I'll try and figure out where it was made. You know, sometimes my my labels change over the years and the color change so I can figure it out that way. But, well, let's it's alright. Well, we'll see, we'll see. There's a one costume designer will occasionally there's one in LA and there's one here. They'll be going through the the racks of the rental houses and they'll take a picture of a shirt of mine that was made from something and, you know, they'll send it to me. Carl Goldberg [00:37:44]: I did a lot of work for the show, Plot Against America that was with, you know, John Turturro was in it. I can't remember who. Yeah. The women. And they, a lot of the clothing was donated to, Housing Works. Oh. So someone took pictures of the shirts from Housing Works. Reg Ferguson [00:38:04]: So how does that make you feel when like when someone goes, hey, look what I found or even like you and I. Alright. That's how we met. Carl Goldberg [00:38:10]: Okay. Here's the best story like this is that I get a email from a guy telling me how good the shirts are and I never made him a shirt. He had bought in LA, there's a store that buys up a lot of the inventory from TV shows and sells to the general public. Oh, wow. And he went in and found a, a plaid shirt that he really loved and he sent me the picture of it. And I said, oh, I made that for Mandy Patankin for Homeland. Love that show. And he bought like 6 6 of these shirts. Carl Goldberg [00:38:40]: They were, you know, because we always do almost always do 2 of the same garment. Oh. For backup. Yeah. And then the crazier thing as it turns out he's a driver and he dropped one of his regular customers is is a producer of movies who I went to high school with. Reg Ferguson [00:38:59]: Woah. And Carl Goldberg [00:39:00]: that same fella, he just produced, one of the producers on the new Bob Dylan biopic. Oh. Which I made a lot of shirts for. And as we were saying, Anton, California does a lot of work because the actors are often there. So they made the shirts for Timothee Chalamet. Reg Ferguson [00:39:16]: Mhmm. Carl Goldberg [00:39:17]: I made for all the other people. So I made the shirts for Timothee Chalamet's photo double. Reg Ferguson [00:39:25]: You're clean to name. One thing that really we haven't conveyed, but I enjoy is that we're both native New Yorkers. Carl Goldberg [00:39:33]: No. Me? No. I'm Philadelphia. Reg Ferguson [00:39:34]: You're you are Philadelphia, but you've lived here so long and you've been in so many different venues. Carl Goldberg [00:39:39]: I moved here I moved here 1980. Reg Ferguson [00:39:41]: Oh, alright. Well I Carl Goldberg [00:39:42]: mean, I listen. I Alright. I remember going to this village when it was scary. Reg Ferguson [00:39:47]: But as a kid This village was scary. Carl Goldberg [00:39:48]: Yeah. But as a kid, my father would bring me up to New York. We'd start, at the Empire State Building Mhmm. To buy sweatshirts and things like that, knitwear. Then we'd go to lower Broadway which is where all the surplus dealers were. Oh. So we'd go down the surplus dealers. Reg Ferguson [00:40:04]: Yeah. Like Canal Street. Yeah. Stuff like that. I remember that. Carl Goldberg [00:40:08]: So we go down there and buy, you know, whatever we surplus we need and say hello to this one and that one. My favorite story when I was a kid, we walk into a place and afterwards I go, dad that guy looked really familiar. Who was that? Because, oh, that was Hank Mathau. That's Walter Mathau's brother. So it looked just like Walter Mathow. Really? Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:40:30]: Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's cool. Well, alright. Well, I mean, you're Yes. You're not official official, but you've lived here. I've lived here. You've lived here. Reg Ferguson [00:40:39]: Yeah. I know. Yeah. Well, Carl Goldberg [00:40:41]: okay. Well, I know the 5th Avenue splits the city. If you're looking downtown, if you look to the right Reg Ferguson [00:40:48]: Alright. Squished. Okay. My only point is Carl Goldberg [00:40:52]: I don't call the subways by colors. Oh, anyone who does that needs not to be able to Reg Ferguson [00:40:57]: take the subway. This is not DC. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:40:59]: These kids use the colors. Reg Ferguson [00:41:00]: That yeah. That annoys me. Even tourists, well, I'm looking for the no. It's the 7th Avenue Carl Goldberg [00:41:05]: Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:41:05]: Local. But this is your more recent location and my point is I really got a kick out of you used to be on Fifth Avenue right on top of Eisenberg's and we had a conversation Carl Goldberg [00:41:18]: We do. A little bit earlier. So Eisenberg's coffee shop if people don't know it's now called S and P. Yes. It was sold Reg Ferguson [00:41:23]: Because of a legal name. Right. Carl Goldberg [00:41:24]: But the guys running it are really great. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:41:26]: They they're in my neighborhood. Carl Goldberg [00:41:28]: Yeah. In Port Street Grocers. Nice guys. Yeah. On Port Street. The owner the second owner when I was there, he was the owner for a long time, was this guy by the name of Josh. Yes. He was about 6 foot 4, probably about 280, 290 and had a ponytail when we first met him. Reg Ferguson [00:41:43]: Yes. Carl Goldberg [00:41:43]: And he would wear these crazy looking printed like Hawaiian shirts sort of thing. So, we became friendly and it got to the point where I would make him shirts and then I'd have lunch. And if I felt I was having a too many, my go to sandwich was chicken salad on rye with lettuce and bacon. Uh-oh. It's a good sandwich. Reg Ferguson [00:42:04]: It is a good sandwich. Carl Goldberg [00:42:04]: So that was my usual, but I mixed it Reg Ferguson [00:42:06]: up. Alright. And I'm a tuna melt. I'm a tuna melt diver. You know Carl Goldberg [00:42:09]: that old tuna melt was you should've seen one of those cans for they were that was not white meat tuna. Okay. Reg Ferguson [00:42:15]: We can move on. But I did the open face anyway. So But it was Carl Goldberg [00:42:18]: a good sandwich. It was a great sandwich. Anyway, I know all the stories. Reg Ferguson [00:42:22]: Don't spoil don't spoil my childhood. Carl Goldberg [00:42:24]: Yeah. But I I would drink I would drink a a Cherry Coke. A real Cherry Coke because it was cherry syrup Right. In there. Reg Ferguson [00:42:31]: Yeah. The real fountain. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:42:32]: Real fountain. Reg Ferguson [00:42:33]: But, I did egg cream. Carl Goldberg [00:42:35]: Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:42:35]: Vanilla. And the funny thing Carl Goldberg [00:42:36]: is not that long ago, there's a guy, his name is, a writer, Coggins, I think his name is. I'm really bad. Reg Ferguson [00:42:44]: Oh, you're talking about, is it David Coggins? Carl Goldberg [00:42:47]: Yeah. David Coggins was talking to why am I blanking his name? He's a, a PR a clothing PR guy whose name I can't remember. Anyway, they're eating lunch at Eisenberg's and they said, oh yeah, Karl the Sharpmaker used to be upstairs here. Reg Ferguson [00:43:04]: Look at that. Yeah. Your influence Yeah. Is as deep and wide as 5th Avenue. Carl Goldberg [00:43:09]: Yeah. Actually, I was on Fifth Avenue for close to, gosh, 30 some odd years. Reg Ferguson [00:43:17]: Oh, that's cool. Carl Goldberg [00:43:17]: So when I moved off of Fifth, it was like, oh, I'm off of Fifth. But we have it's a great new space. We're really happy here. We have beautiful view of the park. You do. Massa Square Park. View of Massa Square Park. Reg Ferguson [00:43:27]: Right there. Carl Goldberg [00:43:28]: There's a lot of light in back and I've got more sewers working. So, we're really happy in this new spot. Reg Ferguson [00:43:33]: And you know, it used to be downstairs. Carl Goldberg [00:43:36]: Oh, next door. Yeah. Spaghetti King. Reg Ferguson [00:43:37]: No, I'm talking downstairs. Yeah. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:43:39]: I thought Reg Ferguson [00:43:40]: that was Yeah. Yeah. And next door was live bait. Live bait. Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:43:44]: The other interesting thing about this building Wasn't it? Is actually it wasn't my space, it was the space right next door in this building was the 1st rehearsal space for the band KISS. Get out. And I believe Wes Anderson had space in this building at one point. Reg Ferguson [00:43:59]: That's not so Carl Goldberg [00:44:00]: Originally, when it was built, they were making bricks for the, the the MetLife building over here. Oh, what? They made bricks in this building. Reg Ferguson [00:44:09]: Get out. Yeah. Wow. Carl Goldberg [00:44:12]: So I Reg Ferguson [00:44:12]: like New York stuff like that. Carl Goldberg [00:44:13]: Yeah. I've never been in a well, my first office space was in the Lincoln building on 42nd Street. Yes. But since that time, I've never been in a fancy building. Not even a b grade building. It was always like a c building. Reg Ferguson [00:44:29]: Okay. What was your your best listen, you've done that like you said, you can't even count. But what right now in a lightning round, what sticks in your mind as like the best shirt you did? Custom shirt. Like what was it like that it it got you? Like pattern or the person Carl Goldberg [00:44:49]: or project? You know, it's it all sorts at this point They're all your babies. Like, I mean, the the really fun, TV stuff is great, that's weird, but it's there's nothing like a guy comes in for the first fitting, you put it on him and it's like, this is great. I love this. Mhmm. So that always makes me feel good. Reg Ferguson [00:45:09]: Okay. What was your worst experience either with a customer or a project? One that you like, Carl Goldberg [00:45:17]: oh my god. Yuck. It's been a long time since I've thrown somebody out, but it's happened. What? Usually, it's done nicely then I say, you know what? This isn't gonna work. Let me give you back the deposit. Wow. Sometimes they're too picky, sometimes they're really hard to fit or weird and it just doesn't go right. So it's better off to cut my losses. Carl Goldberg [00:45:42]: Yeah. I mean, recently, I had some some clothing designers come in and ask me to help them because the factory in China didn't wasn't delivering. So they handed us a shirt to copy, which we did. And then we gave the pattern off to a friend of mine in midtown who's gonna make them and then they measured it and then there was a medium, which I never saw. They said, well this shirt is not the right size. So they brought me back both shirts, the small and the medium and they were they were the same size essentially. So I don't, you know, it it didn't go well. So I asked these young guys to skedaddle? Yeah. Carl Goldberg [00:46:18]: Alrighty. Reg Ferguson [00:46:19]: Why is fashion important, Paul? Carl Goldberg [00:46:23]: You know, we get bored. I mean, there are people who wear the same clothes for their entire life almost. But fashion, you know, it it gives us a little change, and we don't we're not necessarily talking about fast fashion, which is, as we all know is terrible for the the environment. Yeah. But something that has a little bit of change to it, you know, collar styles for example, I took a pic, we just did some 19 seventies shirts. Reg Ferguson [00:46:53]: Yes, you showed me. Carl Goldberg [00:46:54]: So, they were kind of fun, but now the shirt I'm wearing now has kind of a larger collar. We actually have a little device in here that has a patent that keeps the collar standing nicely without a tie because nobody wears tie. I shouldn't take that back. Reg Ferguson [00:47:07]: Hey. Hey. Carl Goldberg [00:47:08]: Hey. Most men do not want to wear a tie. Right. I have young guys who come in who can barely button the collar. It's probably one of my interns. Reg Ferguson [00:47:16]: Yeah. So sad. What difference has fashion made in your life? Carl Goldberg [00:47:22]: I grew up with it. You did? Yeah. I mean, in the army navy store, I grew up with fashion. My father was an amazing merchandiser and he took, surplus and made it fashionable. He was a Francophile because he was had spent time, you know, he was in the 2nd day of Normandy Beach. Woah. He spent a lot of time. He loved France. Carl Goldberg [00:47:43]: He was the first one to import those, fishermen sweaters to the United States. You know, those Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:47:48]: I did some research Carl Goldberg [00:47:50]: on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about that. Reg Ferguson [00:47:51]: You wrote Carl Goldberg [00:47:52]: it in my notes. In. Yeah. So I grew up with That's impressive. Styles as things changed, and, I don't really go there's a bunch of trade shows now. Yeah. I'm going to 1 today. I, you know, I just don't go anymore. Carl Goldberg [00:48:08]: I barely even read the trade magazines, but I watch a little bit, see what's see what's changing. Reg Ferguson [00:48:13]: Well, you're I mean Yeah. You've you've put in the time. Yeah. What is a top fashion tip you would give the everyday man to look his best? Carl Goldberg [00:48:23]: Just make sure you have a nice fit, a comfortable fit, and if you're going somewhere, make sure the shirt's pressed nicely. Mhmm. I've had guys walk in, oh, I pressed this shirt myself and I look at it and I'll take it to the back and let the ladies repress it. So, yeah, I mean just and make sure it feels nice. I mean, that's one of the things about my business is that we use really good fabrics and they feel nice. I mean, we make boxer shorts from leftovers. You know, we'll make a boxer short from a yard of fabric where that shirt would have been a $400 shirt. And you know, we had a yard left, couldn't do anything else with it. Carl Goldberg [00:49:05]: Do you know what that feels like? It feels beautiful. Reg Ferguson [00:49:09]: It is about the feel. Yeah. I agree. Carl Goldberg [00:49:12]: Yeah. My final And one last thing. Yeah. No. No. Don't be first question. High yarn counts feel great. They don't last as long and they wrinkle more generally. Carl Goldberg [00:49:24]: Right. So Just like suit fabric and the whole The sweet spot, Reg Ferguson [00:49:28]: super 1 Carl Goldberg [00:49:28]: It's just a 2 ply 100 or 2 ply 120s yarn will last really well. I mean, I just I posted on my Instagram. I I got rid of a shirt recently that was over 11 years old. Reg Ferguson [00:49:41]: I know. I responded. Carl Goldberg [00:49:42]: And I'd even already replaced the collar once. It was just so beaten to death and I couldn't replace I had fabric. I couldn't even replace it again because it wouldn't have sat. It it it was all worn out. But it was a beautiful fabric from Italy, from a mill that no longer exists. A 1 twenties, 2 ply using good cotton and it was just great. Felt nice. Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:50:04]: So Yeah. I it's all about how you feel. Yeah. Final question, as of all my guests. Carl Goldberg [00:50:10]: Yeah. Reg Ferguson [00:50:11]: What does the phrase always be fly mean to you? Oh, jeez. I know. Look at you. Come on. You can do it. Carl Goldberg [00:50:18]: I'm an old white guy. I know. Reg Ferguson [00:50:20]: A young black guy. Yeah. We're going on tour. Carl Goldberg [00:50:25]: Just, you know, make sure you feel good walking out the door. You know, make sure that, you know, you don't necessarily need to make a statement, but make sure you feel good in what you're wearing. Reg Ferguson [00:50:36]: I like it. Yeah. You did it. Carl Goldberg [00:50:38]: Paul, pleasure. Nice to meet in person. Yeah. Thank you for your time. It was a pleasure. It was enjoyable. And wander around, take some more pictures. I'll be happy to show you guys all the crazy, theater and TV stuff that we've got here that that we keep around. Reg Ferguson [00:50:54]: I will do the tour. Yeah. I'm not dropping my pants for him to see my tag. So you learned from Carl of Seagull shirt makers a lot more about shirts. Right? There is definitely a difference between a store bought shirt and a custom shirt. So do you think it's worth it? Have you thought about what you would get? Then you have the Hollywood and Broadway piece. Costumers for shows have specific requests and he comes up with their vision. That's pretty cool. Reg Ferguson [00:51:26]: The bottom line is quality makes you stand out as a consumer and as a maker. Well, that's a wrap. To my team of interns, past and present who have helped make the Fashion Geek podcast what it is today, I thank you. Always be fly.